Kahn, Charles H. "The Place of the Statesman in Plato's Later Work" in Reading the Statesman, Rowe, Christopher J (ed) Publisher: Academia, Sankt Augustin 1995. Apart from The Republic, the other two famous works of Plato were The Statesman and The Laws. Without the due measure or mean there would be no arts at all, he now says (neither statecraft nor weaving-- proving that measure is not just "an" art after all. �The Politicus: Structure and Form.� In Form and Argument in Late Plato, ed. �The Eleatic Stranger: His Master�s Voice?� in Press, Gerald A. The above scheme should be contrasted with the typology of the Republic; in the Republic oligarchy is higher than democracy. 229–232. To see the ideal the Stranger asks us to imagine a case in which, owing to fear of harm by practitioners of art like doctors or navigators, we decided to make all technical decisions within these arts by law. Gill, Christopher. please confirm that you agree to abide by our usage policies. Kahn, Charles H. "The Place of the Statesman in Plato's Later Work" in Reading the Statesman, Rowe, Christopher J (ed) Publisher: Academia, Sankt Augustin 1995. History of Ideas and Intellectual History, Cambridge Texts in the History of Political Thought, Find out more about sending to your Kindle, Book DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511813054. The Statesman should also be compared to Plato's two main other political dialogues, the Republic and the Laws. ed., Who Speaks for Plato? Sometimes this trilogy is grouped together with the Parmenides (to which both the Theaetetus and the Sophist seem to refer) as a group of 'Eleatic' dialogues. What we need to do is to become familiar with the letters in which the universe is spelled out --then we can learn to recognize the same elements when they recur in new and unfamiliar combinations. Plato's father, Ariston, descended from the kings of Athens and Messenia. Dialogues, vol. But what kind of theoretical knowledge is it? But in the real world this form of government is extremely unlikely and nowhere exists. This was the big mistake. Only in doing this would philosophers be paying neither too much nor too little attention to distinctions or to unity; they would find the mean in their process of dividing and collecting. The Stranger makes the point that the political science is so very difficult that only a few in any given generation might have a remote chance of acquiring it; if there are only rarely great chess players, how often can we expect to have great statesman, practitioners of an incomparably more difficult discipline? These two apparently opposed passages might be thought to indicate a change in Plato's mind -- until, that is, one reads further in the Statesman and clears up that misunderstanding. And this in turn foreshadows the way certain modern political philosophers looked at things; since we cannot count on people's goodness, we have to build institutions that restrict them [although the moderns take this way of thinking to an extreme that completely changes the goal of politics and the model of citizenship]. Slowing down, they next divide creatures reared in herds into land and water animals, then into walkers and fliers. ORDINARY POLITICIANS [AS BECOMES CLEAR AFTER 303C], 291D-292A�CLASSIFICATION OF CONSTITUTIONS, 292A-294A�WHAT IS THE TRUE CRITERION OF CORRECTNESS IN REGIMES? Greek statesman Solon. Finally we come back to the use of the weaving image for statesmanship. SOCRATES: I owe you many thanks, indeed, Theodorus, for the acquaintance both of Theaetetus and of the Stranger. Now we can finally see what that strange group that vied with the statesman for the claim to rule, that group that appeared to be wizards and sophists, truly was: they were the real life political leaders, party leaders, who pretend to be able to rule, but are only pursuing their own interests. If it is a single office, then the person who fills it should have both characteristics. Any creature capable of thought -- for instance a crane, reputed to be a thinking creature -- might divide all other animals off from its own kind. the Protagoras), they class the statesman among those have knowledge (art or techne here suggests knowledge, expertise). In The Statesman, Plato was concerned not only with the ideal state, but also with the best possible state as well. A modern alternative to SparkNotes and CliffsNotes, SuperSummary offers high-quality study guides that feature detailed chapter summaries and analysis of major themes, characters, quotes, and essay topics. Rowman and Littlefield, 2000. Plochmann, G. K. �Socrates, the Stranger from Elea, and Some Others� in Classical Philology 59 (1954): 223-31. Along the way a bizarre myth is told about the cyclical history of the universe, and how, when the universe changes the direction of its spinning, time runs backwards. Sankt Augusin: Academia Verlag, 1995. arts that produce carriages (containers). The essays in this collection consider these subjects and others, focusing in particular on the dramatic form of the dialogue. Much of his conversation is devoted to a minute analysis of the art of weaving, selected by the Stranger as a paradigm of the royal art of politics, for he conceives of the city as an artifact. Democracy retains its name in both of its versions, but it too has lawful and lawless varieties. Book summary views reflect the number of visits to the book and chapter landing pages. Mohr, Richard. This document was last modified on: �Justice and Method in the Statesman� in Justice, Law, and Method in Plato and Aristotle, ed. One kind of knowledge merely pronounces or judges on a subject (e.g., math). After attempting to weed out the undesirables, The too much and the too little are in restless motion: they must be fixed by a mean, which is also a standard external to them. The Stranger again expresses his dissatisfaction. They generally analyze Plato’s dialogues with a view toward learning his “doctrine of _____.” For example, Theaetetus, Sophist, and Statesman are viewed as “Plato’s theory of knowledge,” “Plato’s late ontology,” and “Plato’s revised political theory.” I think that Another kind of knowledge aims toward an end, provides knowledge and commands others to carry out instructions (like a master builder). In the Statesman, the Eleatic Stranger and a young boy named Socrates (not our Socrates, who is a bystander in this dialogue) discuss the problem of the nature of the political art and of its true practitioner. We could not judge a doctor's competence by our own willingness to obey him (This passage should be contrasted with the passage in the Laws that indicates that the lawgiver, like a good doctor, should obtain consent from those he governs. In our current age the Universe is spinning by itself, god having let go [The contrast with the Laws, where cosmic Nous lies behind the motion of the heavens, and the context of this myth in this dialogue and the purposes for which it is being used give one a pretty good sense of how Plato uses myth and the status he accords it. Create ... Summary: others in his discipline tend not to bring their studies to bear on the substance of the dialogues. God assigned the government of particular parts of the universe to lesser deities; over every living herd he assigned its own daimon, its guardian spirit, that provided for all the needs of the herds. In considering the length of a discourse, we should not compare it to others but regard the mean relative to it -- that is, the suitability of its length for the topic and the purpose. The Laws comprises a conversation in 12 books, set onCrete, among three interlocutors: an unnamed Athenian Visitor(Plato’s spokesman in the Laws), Megillus, a Spartan,and Kleinias, a Cretan. These three men are walking the path that Minos (a legendary lawgiver of Crete) and his father followed every nine years to receive the guidance of Zeus. Fruits came without cultivation; the grass was soft enough to use as beds; people needed no shelter. Rule can be divided into rule by one, rule by a few, rule by many; each of these can be subdivided into law- abiding and lawless varieties. (Chicago, 1977). So they begin to divide the forms of knowledge, the arts (technai, crafts). The Statesman and the Laws: 2 Famous Works of Plato! The Visitor discusses the nature and purpose of examples, and then uses weaving as an example of statesmanship. Now he continues with a process of elimination to distinguish other groups who might be thought to vie with the statesman for the art of rule. The Stranger also wants to know if the arts of the statesman, king, slavemaster, and householder are one; they answer yes. Then at 294A the Stranger indicates that he intends to question the boy Socrates to see if he really accepts that a good ruler can govern without laws. The royal science is a science of herd nuture. Perhaps at risk as well is the wholeness of logos or discourse. Gonzalez, Francisco, J. They end up with: a theoretical predirective science that rears land herds of tame, gregarious living creatures that are hornless, noninterbreeding, two footed, wingless. Every time they seem to arrive at an answer, the Stranger shows them they haven't finished yet and sets another goal. I owe you many thanks, indeed, Theodorus, for the acquaintance both of Theaetetus and of the Stranger. Among the political issues that Plato explores are the questions of the best and best practicable forms of government (in the Republic and Laws), the scope of political knowledge or political “science” (in the Statesman), and the proper way to evaluate forms of government such as democracy and oligarchy. This dialogue is the sequel to the Sophist, completing the trilogy that began with the Theaetetus. The other mistake we made was alluded to before: we did not specify how the statesman rules in order to distinguish him from his rivals. The evidence of it was seen in our use of the shepherd-model; to say the statesman is the shepherd of a herd implies a distinction between the ruler and his subjects as between a shepherd and sheep; this would be appropriate only if the ruler were a god, another order of being. But in no time or place could there ever be a very large number of people with the true art of statesmanship (Cf. on the Manage Your Content and Devices page of your Amazon account. 2019. There was no crime or war. The universe begins to forget the instructions it received from god, and it begins to degenerate toward the ancient condition of chaos (a kind of Platonic entropy). The principal subjects in the Statesman may be conveniently embraced under six or seven heads:—(1) the myth; (2) the dialectical interest; (3) the political aspects of the dialogue; (4) the satirical and paradoxical vein; (5) the necessary imperfection of law; (6) the relation of the work to the other writings of Plato; … This gives the following scheme: This shows that as power concentrates in fewer hands rule has a greater potentiality for good and for evil. One could also read the whole trilogy mentioned above as part of this sequence of dialogues about the last days of Socrates: Theaetetus, Euthyphro, Sophist, Statesman, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo. is added to your Approved Personal Document E-mail List under your Personal Document Settings Note you can select to send to either the @free.kindle.com or @kindle.com variations. arts that produce basic materials at their first working. The Hague: Nijhoff, 1980. Klein, J. Plato�s Trilogy: Theaetetus, the Sophist and the Statesman. Their definition so far, he says, is like a mere outline sketch -- it has to be filled in further. Lachterman, D. R. �Review of Klein, Jacob, Plato�s Trilogy,� in Nous 13 (1979): 106-12. Crosson, F. J. Socrates. Our "herd nuture" is too broad a definition. The statesman must treat them as the weaver treats the warp and woof and weave them into a single fabric -- but how? Laws ideally should be written copies of scientific truth received from those who know (of course this is the exceptional case). [See Kenneth Dorter, Form and Good in Plato's Eleatic Dialogues]. Now he returns to the metaphor of children learning their letters (the example of example). Find out more about the Kindle Personal Document Service. Reading the Statesman: Proceedings of the Third Symposium Platonicum. Find out more about sending content to . The king's art is closer to theoretical science than to manual work. Next a motley crew -- like wizards and sophists, but who is the group really? In the first stage, there is carding, then the art of the fuller, the art of the darner, and then the arts which produce the instruments of the weaving process. All of us are like dreamers who think that we know and then wake up to realize we do not. The art of weaving is concerned with producing such garments. (See what I mean about this dialogue!) His mother, Perictione, is said to be related to the 6th century B.C.E. the statesman should take the best of each type and unite that element in them which is divine by a divine bond; and that divine bond is true opinion. It is left entirely open whether or not the political art would dictate this under certain circumstances. Also, the offices of the state should be divided between the two types of people. The ideal thing would be to have the statesman be able to accompany each individual throughout every moment of his or her life and tell them exactly the right thing to do, but this of course is impossible, so laws must be used, even though they cannot take into account the circumstances of each individual. Search for Library Items Search for Lists Search for Contacts Search for a Library. Saini, Damini For the Eleatic Stranger is going to qualify his claims about lawless rule). Studies in Platonic Anonymity. Check if you have access via personal or institutional login. The ideas in the Statesman about relative measure vs. due measure could be related to the 'science of measure' idea discussed in the Protagoras and perhaps connected to the difference between the principles of the Limit and the Unlimited in the Philebus; and the idea of due measure should also be connected to the idea of a knowledge of the Good discussed in the Republic and implied in the idea of the 'true arts' in the Gorgias. True opinion can make the strong more gentle and the soft more courageous. Yes. Albany: SUNY Press, 1997. Best constitution: rule by true stateman (philosopher king). Now at 286B the Stranger returns from his prophylactic digression with the comment that what had spawned it was impatience with their discussion, and he recalls that they had been impatient before with their myth. He acts as though there were a single art of measurement at first and tries to divide it. So the second-best method of government (and the one we are typically stuck with) is to forbid any individual or group to transgress the laws. Each of these two character types has its political benefits and drawbacks; one major drawback is just their tendency to come into conflict. The myth, used previously to fix an error, is now being criticized itself. One way to avoid this is to be very slow and gradual in our divisions; this is one of the first of many places where the dialogue warns of our tendency to rush things. �Plato�s Statesman: Unity and Pluralism� in New Scholasticism 37 (1963): 28-43. Sengupta, Sunita Singh �Constitutions, Virtues, and Philosophy in Plato�s Statesman and Republic.� Polity 13 (Spring 1981): 355-82. This dialogue is the sequel to the Sophist, completing the trilogy that began with the Theaetetus. Form and Good in Plato�s Eleatic Dialogues: The Parmenides, Theaetetus, Sophist, and Statesman. But at 303D, after all this, yet another task remains. His example to show what an example is is the use of letters. Rosen, Stanley. C. Rowe, 291-303, Sankt Augustin: Academia Verlag, 1995. But in the real world the ruler is merely human, and so is imperfect, subject to all the ills of human life that condition our political existence. The Statesman, like Plato's earlier Sophist, features a Stranger who tries to refute Socrates. In commerce, maybe? We go from speaking of "nuture of herds" to "concern with herds" to mark this distinction. 9.1", "denarius") All Search Options [view abbreviations] Home Collections/Texts Perseus Catalog Research Grants Open Source About Help. The Statesman is Plato's neglected political work, but it is crucial for an understanding of the development of his political thinking. It would be a very great mistake to take any of this literally]. We can use examples when a factor identical with a factor in a less known object is rightly believed to exist is a better known object; the better known object is then an example illustrating a point about a less known object. Statesman Relationships. If the person doing it has political knowledge and the result really is beneficial, it would be right to engage in revolution. Nor is that all. The Sophist (Greek: Σοφιστής; Latin: Sophista) is a Platonic dialogue from the philosopher's late period, most likely written in 360 BC. Dorter, Kenneth. Plato was born around 427 b.c. They take as their example the art of weaving woolens. The problems, he reminds us, was in supposing that "nonhumans" was a real class. Shorey, Paul. 8 (1958): 198-218. John J. Cleary and Gary M. Gurtler, 71-103, Lanham, MD: Rowman and Littlefield, 1997. This is only because that classification is organized on a different principle: it goes from most disciplined desire to least disciplined desire and from higher to lower desires. In its presentation of the statesman's expertise, The Statesman modifies, as well as defending in original ways, this central theme of the Republic. The Stranger compares them to instructions given to an exercise class; following the instructions is meant to be beneficial to the average participant. The connection is further made by complaints about the tendency to jump to conclusions again; the philosopher who sees a similarity must patiently divide as far as possible, the philosopher who sees a distinction must patiently gather things into groups. Plato lived 427 - 347 and was an aristocratic Athenian, served probably in the military, and traveled extensively. The Statesman is Plato's neglected political work, but it is crucial for an understanding of the development of his political thinking. This dialogue is the sequel to the Sophist, completing the trilogy that began with the Theaetetus.Sometimes this trilogy is grouped together with the Parmenides (to which both the Theaetetus and the Sophist seem to refer) as a group of 'Eleatic' dialogues. He connects the difference between two kinds of "art" [ but the arts of relative measure are not really arts, apparently] to the problem about dividing things according to real kinds (at 285A-B). This argument discusses measure, excess and deficiency in the arts. Theodorus. The first two books of the dialogue consider the proper goal orend (telos) of legislat… Seth Benardete (University of Chicago Press: 1984). This separates the rule of one person into the best case, monarchy, and the worse case of all -- its lawless variety, tyranny. That influence has much to do with what was wrong with our previous definition]. Chicago, 1984. First, the only true politeia, the ideal constitution, is the one in which the ruler or rulers rule with the true political science and complete authority. [not knowledge-- that would be impossible for so many -- but true opinion. Only sustained and patient attention, attention that patiently wades through many false arrivals, many twists and turns, many detours-- only this kind of patient reflection can really understand the political science, although we all have the temptation -- born of self-love and bias of point of view -- to rush things, to rush headlong into politics without knowing what we are doing. To send content items to your account, Regarding this last point-- this tendency we have to rush to judgment on political matters, believing we already know what political wisdom is-- it is instructive to consider the way the Statesman is written. But just when we think we are finished, we are not. To protect them from doubts about the value of their current digression, the Athenian says he wants to administer a "prophylatic argument" and begins another digression, a digression within a digression! The dialogue is set on the Greek island of Crete in the 4th century B.C.E. In the age in which we actually live, the age of Zeus in which the universe moves by itself, not steered by god, all of the hard parts of life come back, and that has an influence upon political life and upon the art of the statesman. If medical decisions had to be made by an assembly of nondoctors each casting their vote to produce a general law meant to cover all cases, it clearly would not work. But all arts would perish this way; they all require the active research of individual intelligence. Yet this definition has the same problem as our former definiton of the statesman; for we haven't distinguished it from rival and related arts. This new translation makes the dialogue accessible to students of political thought and the introduction outlines the philosophical and historical background necessary for a political theory readership. With the highest class of beings we cannot use visible examples, so we must train ourselves to give and use a rational, verbal account of every subject.
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